This is kinda turning into the 'Why everyone else sucks!' blog.

How about some more 'positive' blog posts on Media Center itself (and of course the all the great new stuff in and for Vista MC)? I'm sure there's no shortage of stuff to write there...

Matt Goyer was doing a great job on that front - but since he's left the team - there's a bit of a hole there. (not to discount Aaron Stebner's blog which has very useful info for developer/setup issues).

8)

Charlie, there is one difference here, and Microsoft better take it as an important one!

The iTV is a box on size of 2-3 CD cases on top of each other, it looks awesome, and what is it that Microsoft have delivered for years? HP and Linksys delivered decent looking boxes for the set-top extenders, and then Microsoft decided to kill support for them in Vista.

So this means that comparing extenders at this point means comparing iTV vs. the XBox 360 extender - what Microsoft really need to learn is that even though XBox 360 technically is a great machine, it fits best in the kids room for gaming - it's big, it's ugly and it's noisy. At my house it's called the wacuum cleaner.

I know that Microsoft isen't the one doing the PC's, but as I see it, Media Centers are a lack of success for the general person - it's a enthusiast thing for people who are used to huge speakers, and other electronics that does not look nice in the livingroom - something needs to be done to change that senario. What do people have to choose from?

- Sony XL? series (Decent for the price, but that DVD changer is so huge that I would never put it in my livingroom, I have one in my office for development, and you should see the wife's face suggesting to move it out of there. The PC isen't exactly small either).

- Niveus Denali (Awesome machine, but again for the enthusiast, it costs big time, and it's big, and not really good looking. Their DVD changer is the same as the Sony, so the same as above goes for it).

- S1Digital, 2partsfuzion, and many others (Again decenent machines, pretty ok looking due, but it just smells of PC all the way home).

What did Microsoft deliver hardware wise then:

- A remote, pretty decent, but nothing special. If you have a livingroom with design stuff it it, is sure won't fit in that room.

- A keyboard, that was also a pretty good shot, but it fails because of a miserable pointing device, and again, it's one of the worst looking things in my livingroom.

So, blaim Apple, blaim their software and idea for being a copy, but they _do_ something right - they deliver the stuff that people would actually put in their livingroom, and they know how to market it.

So, what's next Microsoft?

1. Hire a designer, well, while you are add it hire a whole department of them. And, hire good ones, not just the average joe, and make sure that all hardware you put out looks perfect, and yes, it does make the price higher, but then ship everything as cheap chinese stuff as now, and the exact same device nice looking - just double the price, it's no problem, I think I know what you would sell most of.

2. If you wan't to sell Media Centers, stop marketing them as PC's, _all_ Microsoft marketing around Media Centers is desktop PC's with a 17-19" TFT screen, and a TV as a bonus - stop thinking of it as a PC, but as a home electronics device with the PC as a benefit, not as the primary part.

3. Start making partnerships with home electronic companies instead of PC companies - when connecting with Sony, how typically Microsoft it is to think of their Media Centers as PC's, and connecting with the VAIO department, the PC department instead of the home electronics department.

As I see it, you may have done this first, and you may have the great software, and the great options, but start focusing on how to delivery it to the market hardware wise, marketing wise and all the other areas where you are still stuck in an idea where you deliver PC's.

Regards,

Brian Binnerup

I really hope there are some good new extenders coming, but I have to say the 360 works really well for me. My wife likes it so I am happy. I don't have problem with the noise as the 360 noise levels are low in Media Center mode.
Where is Apples developer story, I can't see My Movies coming to Frontrow

BTW I don't blame Charlie for posting like he has, I think there must be some frustration seeing Apple getting so much buzz while Media Center doesn't register that same

Charlie, don't get me wrong here, I like the software, what I am saying is that your idea behind the post here was to talk dirt about Apple's launch.

My point here is that a great gaming console does not make a great extender - feature-wise it's good, but it's just not a good livingroom machine, no matter how many of them there are sold - fact is that the sold units are sold because of the gaming console, and the ones sold as extenders are sold in lack of better (good looking and silent extenders with the same features).

So, when you ask me to investigate other options than Media Center, I don't think that is fair - what I am suggesting is ways to improve Media Center, instead of always turning the white out of the eyes, and don't understading why Apple keep having success with "nothing new". My point was that there are stuff that Microsoft aren't good at, and actually your post here displays it the best - instead of looking at my points in Xbox 360 as a bad extender device (again, not the functionality itself), you look at sales figures.

You also know that most Media Centers sold are units sold without TV cards, and those that are often are desktop PC's with another dimention.

When you say that you have seen the data (Matt said the same on his blog), then perhaps instead of looking at these data, it would be interesting if you would dig into the interesting data here - how many Media Centers are sold and used as main entertainment center in people's livingrooms?

And I agree you have the best livingroom interface on the planet, I just don't understand why you keep marketing it as a PC instead of a livingroom device, and keep putting out hardware that is best fitted in an office or in the kids room instead of the livingroom.

Your notice about "My Movies" would not be possible if you had focussed on this as home electronics I don't agree with either - I am not saying that these items should not be PC's, with the great features this gives (and quality, where the PC just blew top notch DVD players away in recent tests), I am just saying that despite being a PC, if the device is for the livingroom, there is no need to look at it as a PC.

To sum up:

You got the great software for the livingroom, now start providing the right hardware for the livingroom, and start marketing it as something for the livingroom.

A note to Ian:

The Xbox 360 works very well indeed (despite missing VIDEO_TS playback ;-)), problem is just that it does not fit a well designed room.

If you go into a quiet room (like my bedroom), and turn on the XBox 360, I find it very loud, even in extender mode, and I see the bedroom as the number one place for an extender. When testing Vista I removed the Linksys extender from the bedroom and put in the Xbox 360 - my wife nearly killed me, and could not see what that ugly and noisy gaming console should do better than the Linksys one (and she did not even like that one very much either).

As I see it, an extender device (and if possible a livingroom PC) should not make any more noise than the few db's background noise you always have in a room. You should not notice it being there.

Regards,

Brian

hey- great work with the video!... this is exactly the stuff I want to see - keep it coming.. (would love to see to video some of the new non-html spotlight stuff as well if its possible)...

On the extender topic. Are there any Media Center Extenders available for MCE yet apart from the 360? I can't see the MCE extenders being positive for Microsoft when you have to buy a "gaming unit" to extend it to another room. I certainly wouldn't want to HAVE TO pay for the 360 to get an extender. Although maybe the iTV is a bit expensive it's more in the lines of what I would want to use to extend my media center computer. (Not to mention that it's propably a lot quieter than the 360.)

Also on the extender topic, and that's the only way this iTV needs to be looked at in my opinion, this iTV will make available what's in iTunes. So 'blaming' to have to pay for video's that aren't even HD isn't an iTV issue, but an iTunes (thus conent) issue. We've already seen that there are people that want this in this way by the market share iTunes and the iPods have.

The fact is that Apple can now deliver a '$300 little dongle thing' that will extend the functionality those people already bought.

Microsoft has an Xbox 360 as the alternative for their platform. Seeing that the content for the Media Centers is far more richer (live TV, Recorded TV etc) an extender that has more of the iTV characteristics (but with a local dvd player!) would surely sell and should IMO exist next to the Xbox 360.

Sure, it would probably consume some of the potential Xbox 360 market share, but it would also fill in the market share that is left open by the people that simply don't want an ugly noisy device.

Cheers,

Danee

Charlie, the language "problem" here may get my posts to sound more harsh than they were meant, I am sorry for that.

I don't think you are speaking dirt, but between the lines of this post, I read a "I really don't understand why Apple gets this much attention, when we already have the perfect product". And what I was trying to do was to point out that there is a reason for that; good looking products and marketing.

Quote: "The XBox 360 is a freakin', fantastic Media Center Extender device". I agree on this, from a technical point of view, but if you get in to a general house here in Denmark, try to convince these people to put a Xbox 360 with it's look and noise next to their Bang & Olufsen stuffed house.

Bang & Olufsen may be for the few, but most companies producing flat screens, set-top boxes, speakers, sourround sound equipment, ect. think a lot more of looks than they used to, and my point was that the Xbox 360 and most MCE Media Center PC's, including their MCE remote, and MCE keyboard does not fit very well into these invironments, which Apple's product do/will do in a better way.

I know that it's not *only* about the livingroom, but as I see it, Windows XP is for people's workstations, while Windows XP MCE is for their entertainment center, a entertainment center that is best fitted in the livingroom (otherwise it misses most of the entertainment center point). For the right expirence, as I see it, you have a Media Center PC, and you have a workstation PC, and those aren't the same PC, merging these will only give you stability problems, as the workstation gets installed and uninstalled way to much software, and usage problems when you need to work on the PC while the kids needs to use the Media Center.

What Microsoft tries to do is to market Media Center to be both, and while it indeed is, I personally don't think this is the way you get the best expierence out of it.

So, keeping the software on it's path, but focusing on hardware that would fit into these nice design invironments would allow you to sell Media Center to some people that at this point would never buy a Media Center, or an Xbox 360 to use as extender device, because they simply do not fit in their homes.

Perhaps it's just me, because I live in Scandinavia where design is a main focus, and where not needed background noise is the enemy? I would like others takes on this too, because I could very well be wrong here?

Regards,

Brian

Although the XBox360 is a great MCX for a lot of people, there are still tons of people who would like an MCX that isn't as big, has a different look and isn't as noisy (even in MCX mode).

In other words they're looking for a small, sexy and silent MCX to use in their homes.

Everyone here agrees MCE offers more functionality, a better developer story for 3rd parties etc. than Apple's current offerings and what they've shown so far in terms iTV.

However that doesn't mean people (including myself) don't want a small, sexy silent MCX in addition to the XBox360 offering.

Someone was asking about the future of MCXs and whether the XBox360 was the end of the line in terms of MCXs after the 1st generation Linksys models etc.

I'm suprised Charlie or no one else has mentioned the 3 presentations on MCXs at WinHec2006. Basically the info MS are giving to OEMs for producing MCXs for the Vista timeframe.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/b/9/5b97017b-e28a-4bae-ba48-174cf47d23cd/CON003_WH06.ppt

http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/b/9/5b97017b-e28a-4bae-ba48-174cf47d23cd/CON063_WH06.ppt

http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/b/9/5b97017b-e28a-4bae-ba48-174cf47d23cd/CON055_WH06.ppt

So assuming some OEMs signup for the new MCX program as outlined in the WinHec2006 presentations we will be seeing some new highdef MCX devices for use with Vista.

Let's hope some of the OEMs manage to produce small, sexy silent models.

Cheers

I think a smaller, more attractive Media Center extender is definitely in order. Microsoft may even have to link up with Toshibha or LG (who makes very attractive products) and manufacture their own extender. I actually want an extender for the kitchen, and in no way am I putting a 360 in there. Currently, I have two XBOX 1's around the house for extender purposes, but they are indeed loud.

I do think that Microsoft not making Vista backwards compatible with existing extenders was a mistake. But, then again, I don't know the development procedures and it was probably virtually impossible to do this.

I would never touch that iTV thing because I don't use iTunes. But, the box itself does look very sleek. Maybe a "slimline" 360 will be produced in the future. That'll solve the size and (hopefully) sound issues of the 360 in a heartbeat.

Interesting discussion.

I have to agree with both Brian and Charlie.

Love the Xbox 360 as an extender. Still would like to have another complement to the 360 as I agree with Brian that it dont fit in every room / situation.

Apple have some great looking devices. But for me its another platform and I dont want more platforms in my house. Apple is not an option for me as long as they dont run Windows on their devices. (sure today they are on Intel hardware and you can install Windows Vista on them but as a HTPC device it dont feel relevant to mess with that. For a Laptop why not?)

My personal prefeered setup for the digital home would be:
* Media Center in a closet with loads of storage. Not connected to any screen. GB LAN. two or three digital TV cards for tv.
- No after 5+ years of HTPC in the living room I dont think that is the way to go. Extender is a much better way to go and have the PC either in the working room or in the wardrobe.

* Extender devices in every room with a display device.
- Home Cinema = Xbox 360 as extender and with an Xbox 360 HD DVD player. 1080P projector.
- Gaming room = Xbox 360 as extender and for gaming. 720P display device probably best fit.
- Bed room = nice looking and 0 DB device as extender. 720P display ok.
- Kitchen = nice looking and 0 DB decice as extender. Touch screen.
- Bathroom = nice looking and 0 DB device as extender. Waterproof screen.

What i lack in terms of functionality today: (no particular order)
* Multiroom audio (synched playback should be possible. Like Sonos)
* Sideshow remote control that also works with the Xbox 360 extender and other future extenders.
- Sideshow should work in the contex of the logged in MCX account using RF/BT and IR.
- The remote should be a multifunctional device like Logitech remotes.
- Multiroom support remote controller! With extender support and sideshow! Give it to me!
* Support for more codecs in the extenders. No need for transcoding! DVD and HD DVD also!
* Full EPG worldwide support!!! This is so messy for people outside the US and core for MCE sucess!
* Internet Explorer UI for MCE with smart way to navigate
* Keyboard support on the extenders (RF/BT/IR)
* A more WAIF friendly setup. Add a read only mode to the config. In read only mode you cannot delete any files or mess upp anything. Password protect the config.
* The Xbox 360 extender should be able to use the local DVD and/or HD DVD player directly in the extender UI! Instead of having to drop back to the Xbox UI to do that. And why not add a "start in extender mode" function to the 360?
* Why not add the Shared Computer toolkit to MCE? Create a MCE adapted version of the SCT to make it easy to create a read only MCE config. Making MCE more stable but it can still be updated as SCT allows to build exceptions for stuff like WU, AV etc...
* Align all marketplace and live stuff into one service that adapts to the device that is connecting. One single account and the right UI/features depending on connected device. Like music hire/download, movie hire/download, games hire/download, IP TV etc.
* Full IP TV support and UI in MCE. The future is not in TV cards its in IP TV!
* Better built in radio UI. Better support and UI for internet radio/streams
* Built in RSS App
* Built in weather app. Yes worldwide support for everything not the US only garbage please!
* Windows Live Messenger UI with support for all communication (chatt, Video, call etc)
* Update the support for videos to be much more like My Movies!
* A smarter way to handle MCL files etc. Cache and it "seem" much faster to start. Laggy today! A better user experience needed here.
* Virtual Earth UI for MCE. Integrate with Live messenger so you can see where in the world the one you chat with is.
* Built in email UI. Should be able to use both exchange and other MAPI/POP3 services
* Full support for digital TV and HDTV. All regions and countries.
* Full support for subtitles. All regions and countries.


/Mathias