Charlie Owen - Historical Perspectives on DVD Streaming Feature

Wednesday, July 16, 2008

Historical Perspectives on DVD Streaming Feature

I guess you could say 'I'm back' with this post. Of course, I've probably chosen one of the most polarizing and passionate issues I've every seen in the community. Hopefully this helps put some context around the various discussions and helps you see we take great care to deliver the right features at the right time. Some caveats are in order to set your expectations accordingly...

I set out to independently look at this feature from a historical perspective only.
I did not consider personal content and focused solely on commercial content. I recognize the desire to account for personal content -- but also see numerous solutions to get that content into a form which can be consumed by our feature for personal content (the Video Library). Largely, I think personal content is worthy of a separate discussion.
I do not work on any of the following features: DVD playback, Movies Library, Media Center Extender. Nor am I involved with television / movie partnerships directly. As owner of platform for Windows Media Center I interact with just about every consumer and partner of the Media Center team in some form or fashion -- suffice it to say I don't drive any specific partnerships directly.
I can certainly advocate a particular direction on behalf of the community but have zero ownership of any areas which can actually cause this feature to be implemented. As always, I make it a point to direct feature owners to the community for feedback -- so be sure to leave a comment here or at thegreenbutton.com.
I made a conscious effort to NOT consult with the aforementioned teams while looking into the issues surrounding this feature request. I set out on this endeavour for a fresh, independent view and analysis of the issues to either (a) advocate strongly on behalf of the community we should implement this feature at some point and / or (b) give the community some deeper understanding of why we haven't.

This post should NOT be interpreted in any way, shape or form as insight or guidance on future features in Windows Media Center.

So, here is my take on a DVD streaming feature in no particular order...

1) The usage models for television and movie content is very different from music.

We are talking about 1+ hour audio and video content vs. 3 minutes aural only. It's common for end users to multitask with music but not with television or movies. For television and movies the end user is a captive audience. It's a stretch to say consumers are really clamoring for this capability since in reality they don't switch out discs often enough or consume nearly as much television / movie content in one stretch.

2) Sneakernet is good enough.

From a whole home audio / visual perspective it's a great feature to consider when bringing every scrap of content I have into a single user interface. The reality is we probably aren't solving even a small problem for the broad consumer market -- sneakernet is still awfully convenient for this class of content. There might be a tipping point for this content (as there was for ripped CDs) from the perspective of storage space + tools but I don't think it's happened yet (and you could argue it might not happen).

3) It's pretty rare we choose to build new features for a shrinking market.

"The home video market peaked in 2004 and has declined every year since." See http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/homeentertainment/la-fi-dvd16-2008jun16,0,1267133.story for more information. Note: There is probably an uptick in this market due to BluRay releases -- how much of an upswing is still to be determined. Think about this: The DVD format was released in March 1997 -- if we had wanted to hit the market BEFORE its apex with this feature it would have had to be in the very first version (2002) and certainly no later than the second version (2003).

4) It's a niche market.

It's interesting to note none of the big players (HP, Dell, Sony, Toshiba) offer any sort of DVD library software built for Media Center today (they have in the past) while the smaller OEMs (like Niveus) have done so -- this suggests the market for this feature is indeed niche. You can certainly argue the big guys are completely clueless. I'd reply it's hard to be a market leader and be completely clueless.

5) There are more important destinations on the roadmap.

There are more features than just television and movie playback. The idea of DVD streaming has been on the list of potential features for a very long time -- and the collective wisdom of the entire team has always prioritized it lower than any feature you currently see in the product. It's not as though we've completely ignored the feature or don't get the value proposition. Rather, we've collectively seen more value in other features.

6) Standard definition DVD is not the last removable media format for television / movie content.

HD-Audio and SACD crashed and burned fairly quickly because audio CDs were viewed as good enough for the regular consumer -- as was their lower fidelity MP3 cousins (and hence the rise of Napster, iTunes and others). BluRay could be the final removable media for television shows and movies -- only time will tell. The success of CD ripping and putting together a library of tracks was in part due to the fact there wasn't a significantly better product on the horizon. The market conditions do not yet exist for television and movie shiny discs -- most people can clearly see a benefit between SD and HD video content. Finally, the tipping point of storage + tools for BluRay is farther away than standard definition DVDs.

7) There are differences of opinion on what constitutes DVD streaming.

Is it the entire DVD (including interactivity) or just the long form show or movie? What about the short form content (Making Of)...? Interactive features can prove troublesome to implement in the 'streaming DVD' concept for standard definition DVDs -- and even more so for BluRay discs. There hasn't yet been a clear winner for this definition.

8) There are (significant) legal issues to overcome.

These have been discussed ad nauseum -- MPAA, DMCA, Copyright, Fair Use, etc. Suffice it to say this part of the problem is very complex and costly to resolve -- and an intertwining of stakeholders few consumers grasp.

9) There are (significant) business model issues to resolve.

In a nutshell, we must attempt to please both the content owners and the content consumers. Content owners don't want to give up their current business model until a better one is firmly established. Note the content owners specifically do NOT want a replacement business model, and would rather it be in addition to the current business model. Content consumers could care less about the content owners business model because the overwhelming majority do not realize any direct financial gain from that business model. Rock | Microsoft | Hard Place.

10) In time this is almost surely going to become a moot point.

The online subscription and purchase models (examples: Netflix, Zune Pass, iTunes) will continue to get richer over time -- note the Netflix via XBox Live announcement a few days ago as further proof. If the goal is to have access to every movie or television show made imagine if you will a time when you can pay $X per month with unlimited access to the content. Your guess is as good as mine when this will happen -- I'd say somewhere under 20 years -- and probably sooner, if the music space is any indication of how quickly the playing field can change.

11) The previous incarnation of a DVD library didn't sell.

I'm speaking of the DVD changer -- there were a precious few early adopters who gobbled these up but the reality is it hasn't been overly successful. The cause for DVD streaming could have been helped had there been overwhelming demand for these devices. I'll concede this was not what the community wanted which is why it didn't sell.

12) There is no pre-existing infrastructure on which to build.

The reality is there are many Media Center features built on top of work done by other teams here at Microsoft. For example: the music features leverage a ton of infrastructure built by the Windows Media Player team. It's much easier to deliver features when a good chunk of the work is already done before you start your investments.

13) This is an area where the OEMs can elect to differentiate.

I'm not sure anyone can prove a ripped DVD library is anywhere close to mainstream. (And yes, you can point out someone said the same thing about the whole iTunes + iPod model). Typically, Microsoft does not invest in a feature until it becomes mainstream. (Yes, there are pros and cons, and a few exceptions -- note I'm not making a value judgement on the wisdom of this approach here.) This is definitely an area where OEMs (both big and small) can provide differentiation between each other given the niche market. Generally speaking, it's a healthy thing to allow OEMs to innovate.

In summary... well, that's really up to you. I've tried mostly to present facts and want to leave the conclusion up to you. I do have some questions which might stimulate your thinking in this area:

• What do you think is the largest factor? What about the smallest factor?
• What reasons would you give in support of a DVD streaming feature?
• What do you think about the lack of technical hurdles?
• Is there anything you think I've missed as a blocker?

Categories: Windows Media Center | Comments [25] |

| Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:57:58 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 11:24:37 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

>8) There are (significant) legal issues to overcome.
You're assuming that ALL ripped DVDs are copyrighted. There could be some DVDs that are not copyrighted: i.e. your own personal home video that you created a DVD of using iMovies or Windows Movie Maker. Because there are other types of DVDs other than from Hollywood, you can argue that this could legally get Microsoft out from between the rock and the hard place.

Jaxim

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 11:57:02 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Not surprised DVD changers did not sell, when DVD changers came out they were too much money, and even when the DVD changer price dropped I would still use a HDD for storing DVDs.

You can stream DVDs from Vista to Vista, what makes the extender any different?

Its just I am tired of carrying 197 DVDs around the house to play them :).

Richard Miller Media Center MVP

Richard A Miller

Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:41:26 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Jaxim, please re-read the second caveat bullet point. Providing a personal content feature does nothing to resolve the legal issues surrounding commercially produced DVDs.

Richard, I might recommend you carry a maximum of five DVDs at any given time -- much easier on the lumbar spine.

Charlie Owen

Thursday, July 17, 2008 2:07:19 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Interesting read. I guess we have different opinions as to who Media Center should be designed for. Is MC a mainstream product? Not yet. Though recent market surveys indicate people are ripping movies at a greater rate. The "nerd" community probably would put DVD streaming from a hard drive as the number one feature missing from MC.

I personally think DVD streaming, or more precisely DVD ripping and then streaming, is the most important feature of a media center pc outside of DVR functionality. What is the most popular plugin for MC? It is "My Movies." Now, are my parents going to rip a DVD? No, of course not. BUt it certainly appeals to me to have all my movies available at the press of a button.

I am surprised how easily you dismiss the concept of a DVD library. Your post makes it sound like it is a huge undertaking to add in that feature set. Plugins have been doing this for a long time (coded by people who are not getting paid). It is a legal issue most of all and not a resource issue. By the way, kudos to Microsoft for the plugin architecture of MC.

By the way, check out the "Open Media Library" plugin that is currently under development. Very cool stuff.

Please keep posting.

Kevin

Kevin

Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:29:56 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Kevin, I believe I would not have gone through this effort had I been overtly dismissive of the concept. I've seen lots of feature requests (seriously, more than you can imagine) which I've not even given a second thought -- this is not one of them. I'll also note I didn't even really delve into the technical details -- the non-technical parts are themselves a fairly large undertaking.

I'm very glad we have the platform so the community has a reasonable opportunity to create features we can't or choose not to deliver for whatever reason -- it's fun to watch things like My Movies be successful.

Charlie Owen

Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:00:03 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Wow, that's about all I can say, but I have to get this off my chest.

I am one of those casual users and the main reasons I wanted to use MC was to consolidate my movie collection and prevent my kids from ruining them which they have done. I saw so much potential in this product, but the future of this product was made clear. From your post I see that Microsoft doesn't see a future in MC. The future is the Xbox 360.

I fill miss lead in some way, probably my blind devotion to Microsoft that Microsoft wanted to innovate in the space they are leading. But its apparent that they will let someone else push ahead in the MC market and then innovate like what happened with internet explorer.

I have purchased three Vista machines capable of running MC and two extenders with the plan to add more. My vision was that all the MCs would share content and WHS would hold this content. Not now. My interests are the small niche market which is declining. I will not invest in any more Microsoft products like WHS or another VMC which I was planning to purchase within the coming weeks. I will now refocus my efforts on a community driven product. I guess that's where I and the members of the TGB fit in to Microsoft's world, a declining market. Why even buy TGB if the communities voice don't matter? Good luck developing luke warm products.

RockChok

Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:06:46 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

DVD ripping isn't mainstream yet, but I think it will become as important as ripping cds. For both you need 2 things- hard drive space and access to the living room. Music doesn't take much space and there are many products that will stream music to your stereo.

Hard drives are getting cheap enough to make ripping DVDs affordable, and it only takes about 15 min to do a straight copy. What's missing now is the ability to get them to the TV. The only easy way to do it now is with a Media Center, so the only people who will really be interested in doing this are those who actually connect their MCE to a TV. If that is too niche to be worth the time, then you might as well pink slip the TV group.

There are more and more media streamers coming to the market, which are serving the same people as MCE extenders. Those who are discovering that there is a lot of video content to be had on a computer and want to find a way to get it to the TV. They are the same people who previously needed to find a way to get their mp3 collections to their stereos. There doesn't appear to be a lot of demand for the ability to get ripped DVDs to the TV because nobody knows they can (except MCE and Sage users). If a Linksys, D-link, or Netgear started selling a box in Best Buy with the advertised feature of delivering DVDs to the TV from Hard Drive (with full DVD functionality) then consumers would discover a feature they hadn't realized that they couldn't live without and start showing it off to their friends. In fact I think it would be just as interesting to ask the "Why no dvd streaming" question to those companies as well.

Eventually buying a DVD, ripping it and storing it will be as commonplace as doing the same with CDs. Of course CDs are being supplanted by downloaded content, and you say that the same will happen with DVDs. The way downloads work will have to change a lot first. I can't get my wife interested in the concept at the moment because she doesn't just want the movie for the rental price, she expects all the extras as well. And regardless of what happens in the last few years we still have a decade's worth of DVD purchases to get off the shelf and on the screen for browsing.

I wouldn't be surprised if the XBOX gained the ability to play DVDs off the server from the dashboard without Extender ever getting it. Originally when users began to realize they wanted to get content from their computer to the TV they were supposed to be able to discover they had the ability all along because they already happened to own Media Center and an Xbox. Now they might never hear of media center because the XBOX already does everything and more from the dashboard. The only thing missing is DVR functionality and they may already have that with their Tivo or cable box.

Ian

Ian Johnson

Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:22:15 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

“The usage models for television and movie content is very different from music.”
You somehow manage to warp “different” into “consumers [aren’t] really clamoring for this capability since in reality they don't switch out discs often enough.” It’s pretty presumptuous for you to claim that I’m not switching discs enough to want to have easy, online access to my media. By your logic, we should all be carrying around 1 GB MP3 players because I can only listen to 1 hour of music at a time.

“Sneakernet is good enough.”
Another presumption on your part. Sneakernet might be good enough for you, but it’s outrageous to say that crawling around on my hands and knees in the closet underneath my stairs is just as convenient as browsing through a dynamically sorted list from the couch. Sneakernet also fails to protect my media against accident or abuse, is susceptible to loss, has to be managed before and after media consumption. Have you ever flown anywhere? You sound like a car manufacturer claiming “driving is good enough” just because you happen to not be in the airplane business.

“It's pretty rare we choose to build new features for a shrinking market.”
You’re right, it’s better to ignore a $16 BILLION dollar market because sales have slipped by 3%. This article in USA Today claims sales didn’t start to go down until 2007: http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2008-01-07-dvd-sales-slippage_N.htm, so I dispute your argument that the peak was in 2004. And it’s not like being late to the party has stopped Microsoft before.

“It's a niche market.”
You jump to some interesting conclusions about market DEMAND (do people want DVD streaming) by citing facts about market SUPPLY (are the big OEM’s providing solutions). Music subscriptions are a niche market by your logic (only the small players provide it, Apple doesn’t), and yet Zune is concentrating 100% of its advertising on hawking ZunePass.

“There are more important destinations on the roadmap.”
Like the “Buy Music” link in Media Center whenever I’m looking at music in my own collection that I already own? Yeah, I’m glad Microsoft decided it would be important to try and extract more money from me every chance it got. If you want to justify feature importance, then how about comparing raw numbers: people who would use DVD streaming vs. the least-used feature in Media Center. If you’re confident every other feature in Media Center is more important than DVD streaming, prove it to us with some real data.

“Standard definition DVD is not the last removable media format for television / movie content.”
No one cares if it’s the last one. We care that it’s the one we use right now, and we care about having a good experience with our media today. The argument that “there’s something new coming” should not paralyze a product team into inaction. When DivX or HD-DVD or Blu-Ray or any other format reaches 90% penetration, go ahead and build a streaming feature for that format as well. Seems to me that building a streaming DVD feature today would provide a solid foundation for streaming Blu-Ray in the future.

“There are differences of opinion on what constitutes DVD streaming.”
I’ll settle this one for you. No one wants just the movie. We want the entire DVD experience, menus, extras, audio tracks, subtitles, multiple angles, everything. Although, if you really are pressed for time, go ahead and cut the feature that prevents me from skipping those lame FBI warnings. This is why Microsoft hires program managers.

“There are (significant) legal issues to overcome.”
If Microsoft doesn’t already have the biggest cadre of lawyers on the planet, I don’t know who does. We understand it’s complicated, but we know Microsoft is one of the few players with enough resources to solve it. This is why Microsoft hires attorneys.

“There are (significant) business model issues to resolve.”
A content owner has no business model with me after my purchase of a DVD. We understand that every movie studio on the planet wants to extract money from me every time I watch a movie. That’s why I bought the DVD, so I don’t have to pay any more money. Just because the MPAA wants more money doesn’t mean they are entitled to it. This is why Microsoft hires product managers.

“In time this is almost surely going to become a moot point.”
You’re basically asserting that all media purchases will eventually be replaced by subscription services. I don’t think that also implies everyone will just throw away the DVD’s they already own. In the meantime, customers are still spending billions of dollars buying hundreds of millions of DVD’s every year. You can’t ignore a market of that scale.

“The previous incarnation of a DVD library didn't sell.”
It was prohibitively expensive, and didn’t do what people wanted. Using a related product’s failure as justification to ignore customer demand for a useful, valuable feature is specious reasoning at best.

“There is no pre-existing infrastructure on which to build.”
This only increases the cost to develop. It does not affect the market demand or the value to users. Microsoft has started from scratch on a lot of things, but more commonly, it finds and buys a company to get a jumpstart. This is why Microsoft hires developers.

“This is an area where the OEMs can elect to differentiate. I'm not sure anyone can prove a ripped DVD library is anywhere close to mainstream.”
How about this: 33% of Consumers Copy DVD’s http://www.cepro.com/article/33_of_consumers_copy_dvds_study_finds/ It doesn’t get much more mainstream than that.

You haven’t really presented a good argument yet. I wish you would just admit the truth, which is that Microsoft does not yet have a business justification to pursue the feature. Blaming end users (not enough demand!), content providers (they’ll sue us!), and OEM’s (someone else should do it!) is just a clever way of masking the real issue (it’s expensive, and we’d rather do less work implementing something else).

If I sound bitter, it's because this single issue has forced me to buy a Media Center ($~1500 each) for every endpoint in the house instead of an extender ($300 each).

Brad C.

Thursday, July 17, 2008 7:33:59 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

There was a time, maybe as recently as a year ago, when I cared about the lack of DVD streaming in Media Center. But now I couldn't even bring myself to respond to the first post soliciting information. The reasons are a combination of the declining importance of DVDs and other non-Microsoft solitions that work well enough for my purposes.

More here: http://thunor.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!71C238B5E0E3724D!816.entry

DWAnderson

Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:27:01 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Charlie, it would be good if you could reply to Richard's question "You can stream DVDs from Vista to Vista, what makes the extender any different?"

Also, I don't quite get the blockers list - isn't this something AppleTV kinda does already? Admittedly not as its main selling point, but AFAIK the functionality (from a user perspective) is there if you rip DVD:s to mp4.

Niklas Morberg

Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:21:03 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Actually I would pretty happy if Microsoft developed a full feature DLNA client (and it must be DLNA, not just that Microsoft Connect stuff) that used the VMC 10-foot UI and brought Vista's CODEC support to the same level as the XBOX 360. It seems completely silly to me to have to exit Media Center and play movies from the Dashboard. I can rip my own DVDs, HD-DVDs, and Blu-Ray's thank you but I do understand how a Kladiscape type insert disc and it's ripped would be a nice feature for some people but I understand the legal challenges.

Jim Mallory

Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:42:00 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Hi Charlie,

Thanks a lot for opening up this question to TGB. Certainly you must have known that we (the mce power users) would jump on this and some pissy (sorry I meant pithy) responses would be posted, kudos to you for jumping into the shark tank. I posted a couple of respones on TGB but I just wanted to respond to a couple of points here quick. First I would like to say that DVD streaming to extenders is something I would like, but to be honest, with my movies, OML, etc, I don't think it's a must have feature. The development community is running with Hard-drive based movies.

I think that DVD streaming is one of many features of the "connected home" infrastructure that MS is selling (and hyping) that many power users jump on to and say MS is not delivering. Although v2 extenders are much better than V1's, they are not perfect. I believe that a lot of the discussion about dvd streaming could be silenced if extenders (including the 360) supported more of the codecs used when we rip our movies. The linksys V2 extenders supports most codecs (with some audio issues) but the 360 supports almost none. This has to be fixed.

The second point is the reference to who uses DVD Library. I know that the numbers skew towards the gearheads and TGB readers but in reality, when I demo my HTPC to friends and family, DVD library provides the "wow" (hehe). I have setup at least a dozen HTPC's with VMC for friends and all include DVD library or My Movies. This is a feature the general public wants.

Thanks again Charlie, I really appreciate your reaching out to the community.

hamiltonguy

Friday, July 18, 2008 7:41:24 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

thanks for asking

I and many of my friends would really like this feature. Most of us are streaming SD DVDs with XMBC or other non-MS extenders.
Most Common Reason - kids. It stops them scratching disk of purchased dvd media and home movies.

However - I can see all of these devices being replaced at some point - not with extenders but with non-MS streamers.

MS needs to pull it's finger out in this space, otherwise it will be yet another failure (for ironically something they brought to the mass market).

Streaming and every single Codec support should cater for everyone and every situation.....otherwise whats the point..?
If I can play/stream anything I want off my PC to another PC/Streamer why can't I do the same from my extenders (x360's) - what is the difference and why is it something that worries MS..? How hard can it be...?

XBMC is the market leader, a community project - once they are on a hacked appletv, ps3 or something similar - everyone else can kiss the market goodbye.

you want VMC to be the home hub....prove it!

H Chohan

Friday, July 18, 2008 2:00:05 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

I agree with every point addressed by Brad C.

mstevens

Tuesday, July 22, 2008 4:09:40 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Charlie,

I think your analysis and conclusions are off. No time to disect it all, but here are a few glaring points.

DVD Changers & DVD Library was a miss
- DVD Changers were too expensive for mainstream, and lacked the DVD Streaming features required to please the enthusiasts. Those too aspects created a missed opportunity for both mainstream consumers and the enthusiasts that would have embraced the solution, and in turn would have told the mainstream to embrace it. I don't agree that it signaled a lack of enthusiasm for DVD Streaming, if anything, that was exactly what everyone wanted the changer to do, stream to other end points in the home.

The Home Theater Market is Shrinking
- Even if the Home Theater Market shrinks $500M to $23.6B this year, I'd still argue that's fertile ground for several years until the Internet finally gets adopted by mainstream consumers as a way to acquire movies. The majority of mainstream consumers I know still aquire and rent DVDs as the main source of their home movie viewing, and even if there are declines, it is still the ubiquitous method for the US and Europe.

It's a Niche Market; Sneakernet is good Enough
- It's only niche because the large OEMs have legal roadblocks to launching something like this without help. Microsoft has the DRM to confidently stream a DVD from one point to another end point in the home. If Microsoft were to enable this, and support large OEMs with consumer education, this would not be a niche market. I compare it to a DVR, once a consumer has been shown their entire movie collection up on the screen, and handed the remote, they never want to go back to Sneakernet.

My bottomline argument for the feature is that DVDs are now. Even more than BD, the deceased HD-DVD, and the future world of Movies on Demand over Broadband. OEMs like Niveus, Enthusiasts like the Green Button Community, and my parents (mainstream) live in the now. From our revenues, to our living rooms, DVD Streaming & whole home playback continues to be a missed opportunity for Microsoft, it's partners, and unfortunately, it's customers.

The only last point I'd make is that clearly eHome is not timid when it comes to development work. eHome signed up to bring CableCard technology to the PC and Extenders. The CableCard world is plagued with evolving specs from OCUR, to BOCUR, to MOCUR, to SDV and by no means is CableCard even in the existing homes of our customers. Don't get me wrong, CableCard is a worthy pursuit, but with hindsight, it makes DVD Streaming look like a no brainer from a consumer adoption standpoint, and a no brainer in terms of technical challenges for eHome. Since the MPAA had approved MS DRM for DVD Streaming several years ago, the legal hurdles were out of the way, it's really just been a matter of priority and understanding the market.

Charlie, it's time to quit carrying those discs around the house, time to stop looking for where you last put your favorite DVD.... it's time to start streaming ;)

Tim Cutting (Niveus Media)

Tuesday, July 22, 2008 8:35:24 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Why does it have to be so complicated. I purchased a Vista Media Center consolidate my media of all types; TV recordings, pictures, movies, and music. I even purchased extenders to be able to enjoy my media anywhere in my house. Sure I could have a VCR, DVD player, cable box, and CD player in every room that I wanted media but then why would I need Vista Media Center.

Landmark

Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:19:02 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

What reasons would you give in support of a DVD streaming feature?

(I posted this on TGB)

1: It would increase sales of the extenders.

2: No more damaged or scratched DVDs.

3: Adding DVD Library would give you same experience as the main Media Center PC.

4: It would stop people from leaving Media Center for another PVR software i.e. SageTV

5: This would be a good selling point the custom installers.

6: Some extenders do not have a DVD drive.

7: Some people have Media Center as a server in the basement or attic, DVD Library on extender would be helpful.

8: It would stop me from carting around 198 DVDs from extender to extender (that’s if the extender had a DVD drive), and even then if the extender could play the DVD it would not be Media Center UI.

9: It would make a lot of people happy, my son and the wife (the boss).

10: It would piss off Sage, BeyondTV :)

Richard A Miller

Thursday, July 24, 2008 10:48:46 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

If you have kids the problem with scratched DVDs is certainly the main reason for ripping DVDs.

I only bought a XBOX 360 to use as an extender to view pictures and movies. Actually both is not working as expected... For pictures MS Windows (even VISTA) is not even able to read pictures exif data for correct picture rotation, DVD eh. movie streaming is only working with loss of functionality.

If once there is a box like popcorn hour 100, with a nice GUI, easy to install and use. That would be great. All I need is: stream kids DVDs, listen to music (mp3) and view pictures at the TV.

christian

Schindler

Friday, July 25, 2008 4:04:55 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

If Mircosoft wont allow a native solution. What steps can micosoft take to allow third parties to develop a DVD streaming solution and what is preventing Microsoft or third parties from taking these steps?"

Amador

Monday, August 04, 2008 7:46:36 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Apple has done a much better job in a similar situation: look at the number of songs sold on iTunes vs. the capacity of iPods. They are clearly not going out of their way to disallow placeshifting of content. Why is Microsoft choosing to be the industry's enforcer?

ConsumerFocus

Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:00:40 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Charlie - I think there is a relatively easy solution to this. Microsoft can either:
a.) put all of the codecs that vista media center can play on the extenders
b.) allow the owners of the extenders to install codecs.

This does not force Microsoft to write the code to allow the DVD to stream (I am sure that other people will gladly write a plug in for this). It would also give people the ability to add codecs in the future, since those are always changing, and probably always will.

There are some excellent plugins that are being written for VMC, and I think that others could take full advantage of what VMC should be with this added ability.

Is that something that can happen?

Jeff Garvey

Thursday, August 07, 2008 7:16:51 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

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Sarah

Sunday, August 10, 2008 3:44:10 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Charlie, this is very simple.

1) On your own media center have you enabled Gallery mode for DVD playback?

2) Isn't the whole point of an extender to extend all the functionality of the media center PC?

If the answers to both questions are yes then the eHome team have some coding to be getting on with. If the any of the answers are no, then i would be surprised ;)

buellpilot

Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:58:59 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

I can appriciate the fact that there are potential legal scenarios however what we are really talking about is the difference beween a stand-alone dvd library (which we have via a registry key) and the ability to stream video.

There are numerous streaming solutions out there for Audio/Video signals regardless of source and they avoid legal conflict - I understand the situation is unique when you combine a "dvd library feature" with that ability but now let's compare that scenario to cable tv and streaming copyright content to an extender - bottom line, it's not Microsoft's responsibility to police end-user violations. That's how all of these other media sharing services stay-alive... This is just a huge frustration to end users not to have this ability.

Jay

Tuesday, August 19, 2008 12:23:22 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Agreed Jay - If Microsoft was to take a poll to find out how many people would find this a useful feature, I think it would show that more people are as interested if not more than the cablecard ability. Plus without the Directv features in this version, unless something comes out that is good for Media Center that appeases its users, Microsoft could see people leave for different platforms.

However - like some people over at TGB have been saying, maybe that is what they want...I hope not, because I like the platform, and if I had this ability, I could call my setup complete!

Jeff Garvey

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